Design Education Insights: A Conversation with Ingmar Thies

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Born and raised in Hamburg, Germany, Sven Ingmar Thies studied graphic design at Braunschweig University of Art and completed his final thesis in Tokyo and Yokohama.
 
 Since his time at university, he has focused on a holistic design approach that seamlessly connects to other design disciplines, other specialist areas or even to handicrafts. This conviction was intensified further by two professional engagements at Henrion, Ludlow & Schmidt in London, where brands were holistically developed, and at Kitayama Institute in Tokyo, where he learnt about the interplay between architecture and design during a two-year postgraduate scholarship.
 
 Besides being involved in project-related work for brand agencies Landor (today, Landor & Fitch) and Enterprise IG (today, Superunion), he founded Thies Design in 1998, which develops tailored brand experiences for enterprises and institutions (www.thiesdesign.com).

In addition to his professional activities, Sven Ingmar Thies has taught graphic design at the University of Applied Arts Vienna’s “Class of Ideas” since 2011.

He is author and editor of the book “Teaching Graphic Design”.

Book:
EN: Teaching Graphic Design (2nd edition): https://birkhauser.com/en/book/9783035629668
DE: Grafikdesign unterrichten (1st edition): https://birkhauser.com/de/book/9783035629675

Review:
EN: by Sean Adams, ArtCenter: https://lnkd.in/dgDmeige
DE: by Evelyn Junghanns, Graphische: https://lnkd.in/dGcPNMyH

Transcript

0:10

Hello and welcome to Design Education Talks from the New Art School. Our guest today is Ingmar Thies. Welcome Ingmar. Hi, Lefteris. Thanks for having me. It's fantastic to have you here. So tell us about your new work. Yes, maybe I'll give you a short introduction about myself first. So I'm German, born in Hamburg. I studied graphic design in Brunswick in Germany. Actually, I went for my final examination to Yokohama in Japan. I came back, I worked in London at Henry and Schmid Smith in English. I went again to Japan with a postgraduate scholarship for two years. I studied Japanese and I worked there at a design company for one year. The design company is called Kitayama. company. It's not that famous, I guess, worldwide, but it's famous in Japan. And Mr. Kitayama is actually the, it's called Identical Twin Brother of the architect Tadau Ando. Oh, wow. So I learned there a lot. And now back in Europe, I'm running my own studio in Vienna for about 25 years now. And I'm teaching. communication designer at the University of Fine Arts in, sorry, of Applied Arts in Vienna for more than 12 years now. Okay. That's me. So, and I can tell you, I have two parts, maybe I should add that I have my studio work that is a design and I do some And I have the other part that is my university work. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So what made you get into teaching? That's a good question. So actually it was by chance. Or I should start a little bit earlier. When I was a student, I really loved to discuss everything about design. And I had a great student mate Andreas Trumpler that days. And we were able to discuss everything all night long, even about the thickness of a stroke and a logotype. So we did that for hours. So why I'm telling this is I was always interested in challenging my idols or my way of thinking. And that's why I was always interested in teaching. But in the end, was by Sharns, a friend of mine asked me to help out at a technical upper-level secondary school. I did that for one year, but I was struggling a lot for project those days and I quit. And a few years later another friend by Sharns again introduced me to the leading professor of the class I'm teaching now at. And we just met for a beer, we had a nice talk. on design, on graphic design. I run some workshops at that class on branding and it was successful or at least the students told they were happy with my work. And yes, after a while I got a half-time employment there or here at the university and since then I'm here. Okay, this is exciting. So how has the teaching landscape changed since you started? What changes have you noticed? I think the tools change. So of course, everybody's talking about AI that didn't exist 12 years ago. Not in the form we know AI now these days. I'm not sure if so many things have changed because the students or at least our students are still highly motivated. They are curious. They ask a lot of questions. They also question our style of teaching. We always have great discussions. So I change. I'm getting older. The students remain the same age. For me, not that many things have changed. The political situation has changed. They change a lot. But that's also interesting because all students of our class are highly into politics. So they are very interested in politics and we have discussions on that as well, more or less every day. Um, so to give you a short answer, I don't think that our approaches and our beliefs have changed, but definitely the tools that is AI that are programs, whatever. What about the way, uh, the students are getting employment? You mean if that has changed? Yes. Yes, of course, they use different tools. So they contact studios or advertising agencies by using Instagram messages, whatever. So that way has changed. But yes. Has that process remained the same? I mean, it seems that, I mean, is there the... You might not have, for example, a greater supply or you have in your country, you might have the same supply of graduates. No, that hasn't changed because so what has changed is that studios come to university and they are asking for students for getting in touch with them. So that is a big change, I think, because they are looking for great people. And they come proactively to our class and ask, oh, how can we meet your students? And sometimes we say, don't meet them because then they will quit studying. You're in a very fortunate position. This was happening in some countries for more than 30 years ago. Is this happening in... Yes, I know. But it's like that now. Oh, wow. Amazing. Amazing. So you've written a book. Yes, I wrote a book and actually I put it here in the back. Oh wow. That everybody can see it. It's called teaching graphic design. And okay, I can tell something about the book, of course. The intention to write the book was because I was questioning my style of teaching, my way of teaching. And I wanted to improve my teaching, of course. And for that, I talked with a lot of coworkers, with friends, with other designers. And then at a certain point, I thought, okay, I can talk with myself and with my close friends. But I should do that in a bigger scale. And I decided to ask international educators in Japan, in China, in Austria, Great Britain as well, in the US and in Germany. So, and I asked big names like Eric Spiekermann, some may know him. I asked also, I interviewed Stefan Sagmeister. I also talked with Raffna Ramanathan. from the UAL, now head of Central Saint Martins. And I had great talks with them, great interviews, and I learned a lot. So before I then started to write my book, I had learned thousand new things about teaching. That was wonderful. And the book in itself, it's about how to improve your own teaching style. It's not a how to task book. I'm not telling how to teach. I'm asking questions and I give you text to reflect about your own teaching style. So that's the aim of the book. Yes, of course. And I didn't ask so all people I mentioned, all of them are graphic designers. But among those 24 people, I also interviewed a game designer, I interviewed an industrial designer, I interviewed a cognitive psychologist. So I tried to talk about teaching with people outside the graphic design or communication design world. And that was fantastic as well, because of course they... They have different approaches, different problems and different insights to offer. And I was very happy at the end of my interviews. So my goal was reached, I learned, and then I had to write a book. And that's a tough, that's a very tough way to edit interviews, to structure your own thoughts. always having in mind that I like to inspire other people. That was tough work and took about three years altogether. Wow, wow. So what challenges did you have writing that book? I was highly motivated from the first moment on. And the biggest challenge, so writing a book for me, it's like a design process, you know, so you have, you think you have great ideas, you have great expressions or analogies, whatever. But then you hesitate and you really think, no, that's not good enough. and you go back, you go back and forth, back and forth. You talk with other people, you get inspirations from them. But you are, at least in my case, I wasn't happy all the time with my outcome. And then you rethink and you question yourself, your approach again. But then there comes a certain point where you think, yes, that's it. And then you go. And then you write and then it's like a flow. And I compare that with the design process because it felt very similar. But over the span of three years. So it was a long, long design project. Wonderful. So in your book, you mentioned that listening is rarely used consciously in lessons. So what do you mean by that? Mmm. I so it's not me it's not only me who says that so I talk with a lot of students and with co-workers with other teachers in other fields and most of them agreed that they listen less or at least they don't do that consciously as you mentioned. And I think listening is very important. So I have a quote of Michael P. Nichols. He is a psychologist. And he said, the essence of good listening is empathy. And I think empathy is one of the biggest part in teaching. Also in designing. So and I think. It should be. used more consciously. And I have to do one step back because in my book, sorry, in my book I differentiate the actions we teachers do in class. And we ask in class, we speak in class, of course we listen in class, we rethink and we letting do. So we don't do, we let do the students. and those actions, there's not the most important action and of course listening is not the most important action in this little structure. I believe that listening to unfairs the responsibility to the listener. Sorry, to the speaking person. Um, yeah, I really believe that it's very important to give the responsibility of their thinking of their working to the students. And that happens if you listen, I can take like now I'm talking, talking. You're listen, you're listening. Thank you. But I'd like to... to accompany students to improve their own thinking, being, and doing and designing. And that's perfectly possible with listening. So and maybe I can give you, I think that there's a nice wordplay, a little surprise maybe. So if you put the letters of the word listen, in a different order you can form a new word. Maybe some of you know already. So you take L-I-S-T-E-N and you reorder the letters and then surprisingly you put together silent. So listen has the same letters then like silent. And that's interesting. because in our Western world, silence is a bad thing during conversations, right? So if we ask a question and the person you ask doesn't answer within three or four seconds, all of us feel a bit uncomfortable. And I found out there are science statistics about that. But I would suggest to wait longer than four seconds, wait five seconds, wait even seven seconds or 10 seconds. Let the other person, in my case, let the students think, give them time to think, and don't interrupt them and tell them what you think about your own question. So that's one. finding I had during my book writing. And another thing to listening, because some people ask me how to improve your listening skills. And I think that's... I'm following the approach of my book. I won't tell you how to improve your listening skills. But they are two good questions. So you could ask yourself, what advantage do students have when you listen to them? And ask yourself as well, how should I listen in order to be of advantage to them? And if you think about these two questions, you will find your own way how you can improve your listening skills. That's excellent. Also, you mentioned that giving feedback in your book is also part of your reflection. So what do we as educators need to improve? That actually, of course, everything depends on the person, on the teacher. Yeah. And I'm pretty sure there are a lot of great teachers out there. And also for that, I do a step back. In my days, I had teachers, professors who told, yes, that's good. Well, that's bad. Okay. Unfortunately, there were even professors who used really bad words to express if you have done something in a bad way. And that was not motivating. That was de-motivating. You lose respect. So, and so coming to the point, I think giving feedback is motivating. And again, is letting the student find their own way. And that's a big difference. So I can tell what is good and bad, but I should let the students find out their own approach to their designs. And yeah, I train myself or I try to to train with the students, giving respectful and constructive feedback. In class, for example, so in my case, I really hold back my feedback for long. So instead, I ask the students to give each other feedback. So that's the best way, I always think. And of course, sometimes you guide them a little and you ask questions to get it on rolling. Um And I also do discussions with the students like finding feedback guidelines. Feedback guidelines. Of course, that doesn't have to be very strict and it should be flexible. But it's always interesting what students think about giving and receiving feedback. That's also maybe a very important point, because it's not only about giving feedback, it's also, of course, about accepting feedback, right? Yes. So there's no need to start a discussion or even an argument after you got some feedback, just accept it. Because in every feedback, there's some true point in. Talking about feedback, I also start feedback sessions with questions. So I ask students, are you already happy with your work? I also ask them, where did you have problems on your way? I also ask, what would you still like to improve? That's always good. And same thing, they are responsible. for the feedback session. And that's important, I think. And sometimes I use a good opener and I just ask them, what would you like to get feedback for? So they should decide which part of their concept, of their idea for a poster, for a logo type, whatever, they should decide what they like to get feedback for. So that's the way. I think about giving feedback. That's excellent. So after writing your book and you came back to teaching, did you find that you need to do something differently from before, from before writing the book? Yes, I do everything I do. I do now very consciously. Or to be honest, I don't do that every day and every minute. Of course not. I'm a human being, I'm spontaneously, and I'm following no strict rules. Right. But I'm very aware of giving positive, constructive feedback. I was that I was like that before, but now I even try it harder. And I also changed. So that's maybe an interesting point. I also interviewed in my book Michael Hole and Mathilde Scholz. They teach at the Bauhaus University in Dessau. And they installed, so they have at the end of each class or at the end of each session, they get feedback from the students. They ask them just the last five or 10 minutes. They ask the students always. what was good, where were problems, what was not clear, do you have any ideas for improvements? And they also let the students reflect about themselves. So what did you do well and what can you improve? So that's a little sheet of paper they hand out and they have a lively discussions at every end of each session. And the good thing is that you can improve teaching immediately for the next session. Yeah. So in my university, at my university, we have, of course, evaluation sheets or feedback sheets you hand out at the end of the semester, and then you can improve everything for the next term. But I think it's very smart to do that every time you teach at the end and then next session. you already can improve things. Not on your side, but also together with the students. So I tried that. You have to be strict or you have to follow your own way to do that at every session. But it was successful. It really works well. So I changed that. And I also changed, that is also an outcome of my book, I think. I try, I don't do that every term, but I try to let the students decide what topic they like to work on. So they decide what we talk about, they decide how to approach a certain theme or topic. And that's actually I'm trying right now more often. But it's always a mixture. So sometimes you have an assignment and sometimes you have an open assignment where the students decide. Yeah. But do you also find that there are structures in your school that could actually be changed as well? Hmm. Yes. Also, I think it would be great. to get much more feedback on your teaching. That you have peer reviews, that you invite teachers from other classes to do peer reviews, maybe also your co-workers and always ask the students. So I'd like to change that in our at our university. So it would be great to install a platform, whatever it's called, where teachers teach teachers. Where teachers give feedback to teachers. And that's very, very That's very, yeah, that would be very important. Or actually, I hope that I quote her correctly now, but I interviewed Raffina Ramanathan, as I mentioned before. And she told me she got great feedback from an older teacher in younger days. Don't talk too much, relax. and be yourself. And that was a moment for her like, yes, I should change that. And from that moment on, she changed her behavior, her personality and class and got more happy and more successful, I think. So she was always under tension and she was tired after her classes. But when realizing by another guy telling her, when realizing that everything went more smoothly. Absolutely. How can our viewers and listeners find you? You can find me, I think best way is on LinkedIn with my name Ing-Martis. You can also find me on Instagram, but I prefer LinkedIn. And actually, I want to start, I will do that on March, I think on March 4th. I'd like to start the series. I will call them Tuesday Questions. I will always post a question. I will give some answers, but I'd like to join other educators to answer the questions I'm asking there. So that's also on LinkedIn. And of course, you can find me, tisdesign, t-h- dot com. And also for the book there is a website out there. It's called teac Oh, wonderful. That's fantastic. I'd be very happy to have exchange on LinkedIn, whatever media you'd like to use. Wonderful. And what advice would you like to leave us with? Anything we haven't talked about? and advice. I think a lot of people give you the advice to stay curious, but for me that is very abstract. And I have two thoughts on that. Also an abstract advice. I think before you stay curious, you should stay open-minded. Okay. I think that's the step before. Um And staying open-minded means for me, question yourself, question your point of views regarding design, but also political situations, whatever. Ask yourself if your beliefs are correct. Do that from time to time. So that would be an advice. And I also have a practical advice. Try to improve things which surround you. Do that every day. It's maybe not necessary to improve them in real, but think about how to improve things because that's what design is about. I have the problem when I'm running the street. I'm walking on the street. I see bad logo types everywhere and I see bad posters everywhere. Yes, yes, yes. That's actually not good. That's not very healthy. But in my head, I always try to improve them. And that's fun. That's a fun fact, I think. But maybe not only improving design things. So maybe you can just improve the usage of water while you are teeth brushing, whatever. So what I want to tell is Stay. open-minded, stay curious and see things you'd like to improve. And if the problem gets bigger, then ask people to collaborate with you and improve things just in your surrounding. And don't wait for assignments from your teacher. Excellent. Well, thank you so much, Ingmar, for this conversation. It's been fantastic. And thank you. Keep in touch. Keep in touch with the podcast. All the best. Yes, thank you very much. Great. Bye.