Design Education Talks Ep. 76 - Tim Weaver

"Meet Tim Weaver, AKA The Brand Weaver, the ultimate Creative Solutions Activist! With over 14 years in the creative industry, he's not afraid to shake things up and challenge the status quo. Tim's worked with big shot corporate brands like DC Comics, Lucozade, and EasyJet. Now, he's performing a dual role - leading a team of 15 creatives at Interactive Schools, a global independent school storytelling agency AND helping brands to stand out from the crowd as a solo freelancer.

Tim's on a mission to inspire the next generation of creatives, because let's face it, there's nothing better than real-world experience to complement your education. He's living proof of that, and that's why Tim champions graduate recruitment, and student experience placements within his own team!"

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Transcript

Lefteris Heretakis: 0:10

Hello, and welcome to design education talks by the new art school. Our guest today is Tim Weaver. Welcome, Tim.

Tim Weaver: 0:19

Good morning. Thank you for having me.

Lefteris Heretakis: 0:20

Hello, hello. Fantastic to have you here.

Tim Weaver: 0:24

So tell us about you and your work. Well, what stops so I'm a big, burly, bearded tattoo chap who grew up kind of playing in metal bands and touring Europe, and kind of found my passion for design through that kind of creating logos, posters, websites for my buddies, and they're all terrible, absolutely terrible. But naturally, it's something I had a passion for. So I went on to university and studied this mythical thing called multimedia technology at the time, I then moved and got myself a internship with an agency and jumped through a few agencies to the point where I'm part time creative director of an independent school marketing agency, with a sole purpose to inspire schools to share their stories, and kind of like Batman, then my evenings as my vigilante work, where I work with, like rebellious brand owners, and work with them on their branding. So I never split life, but it's very rewarding and super creative. That's wonderful. That's wonderful. So you're actually also involved in recruiting designers, then? That's correct. Yes. So I think there's a wonderful merit to bringing young talent into an agency. And I know that because it was firsthand what I did, you know, most my university course when I back in the day, you know, before the wheel was invented, when I went to university, it was like, maybe two and a half days, or three days, tops that you would actually be on campus studying something. And I was like, I want to, I want to experience what this is going to be like in the real world. And so I actively went out, I was very lucky that I knew a couple of people who are a little bit older than me who worked in agencies. And I was like, Can I come to work for you please, can I just just tread the boards get some experience. And I was really lucky that I got an internship with the agency to kind of complement my university life. So I was doing two days at uni, sorry, two and a half days at uni, two days at the agency. And then I had another half day to work on home projects and things like that. And it was mega important, because I got such a rounded appreciation for what was going on, you know, in the industry at the time, as well as improving my education on the subject of creative design. And from that, it's always been what I've wanted to do. So at at my company, I am a creative director of 16, eight of those recruits now have come directly out of university, and two of which now team leaves, the senior designers, they've been with me for six years. And it all started by me going in and offering the same opportunity that I went out and actually got for myself back at university.

Lefteris Heretakis: 3:19

That's wonderful. That's wonderful. So what are the key things you need to bear in mind that when dealing with the education sector,

Tim Weaver: 3:27

or so it's really important to know that the company I work for we work predominantly with the independent school sector. So these are the fee paying parents, you know, this is it's a lot of money 30 to 40 grand, but like university education, it costs a lot, ultimately. But there are a few things that I've discovered, through my time with working with them, that are important to bear in mind, like the first thing is, don't take anything on face value in education is quite possibly the most valuable commodity in the world. And that and that will never change really. And it's really common though, when you start to ask people, What is it about your school that makes it so special that will make people want to give over all this money, that they always go for really high surface level responses. And it feels so cliche and horrible and they can't really communicate the value that their school offers. And that's where someone like myself and my company would come in and really drill down beneath that surface level, to try and find something that resonates with an audience. The other thing to bear in mind is the stakeholders. When people think school they think students, but actually a school community is so broad. You of course have the students but equally you have the parents who are highly invested in this education, because they're putting a lot of money into it. You've got grandparents equally who could be helping to top up or even pay for that on behalf of the students or their grandchildren. Teachers as governors, local ambassadors, the list is endless. There are so many people that you have to consider when working with in a school environment. And I think the third and final thing, and it's only through being immersed in the sector, so very long as don't lean into stereotypes. I mean, I think it's, it's quite common for anyone in a creative position to go like, here's a brief and you go, Well, I've heard a bit about this particular subject or this area, and I'm gonna roll with it. But 90% of that time is going to be relying on a stereotype that you picked up unless you have first hand experience. And so everyone has these thoughts and preconceived opinions that a particular culture values, a certain career path as the most valuable when I found the complete opposite of what you might think, you know, parents would go, I want my child to be a lawyer adopted or go, No, the reason we're paying this money is to present them with opportunities. It's not to put them on a career path to be a lawyer. But I want them to experience everything that life has to offer. So the choice that they make at the end of this is going to provide value, and they're going to find something that they absolutely love for the rest of their life, which I think is an incredibly powerful and emotive reason to invest in education. And far from the stereotype that you might assume with independent school education. I mean, naturally, that the other benefits that you get, the boosting confidence that a student can receive within an independent school environment is phenomenal. Because of that more one to one style education that you perceive the wealth of opportunities, as I said, is phenomenal. I remember working with a school and talking to them about their, their extracurricular opportunities, and what they provided. And one child very confidently said to me, we've got a hobbit chess club. And that I've never heard of a hobbit chess club before. But if you want opportunities, that's bold and ambitious, ultimately, you can't forget that in an independent education, you are buying your way into a community as well, you have your own little black book. So when you do leave, you know, coming back to for my own education, where I went and sought out a placement at an agency, students in an independent sector are just that little bit better position, because they may know someone who can give them a leg up into a certain environment, because of the people that are around. And it's a fascinating industry to be part of.

Lefteris Heretakis: 7:28

What about the same question in the higher education context?

Tim Weaver: 7:31

In higher education? So in terms of the university side of things? Well, I mean, the things that I noticed, because obviously, working closely with university students now is the education that they're receiving is it's very one sided. Okay, it's very weighted in one particular area. So if I, you know, invite a student in, and they get some experience, and I give them a task, they end up generating 10 to 12 different options that they want me to sit down and critique with them. But in an agency environment, you no one has time to sit down and review 12 ideas, the students seem to, they lack the confidence to make a decision and something which is more visceral, guttural to go. I've tried that, but I'm not going to put that in front of my senior review. At this moment. Like, I need to show them everything. But one of the first things I do with anyone who comes to the door, it's like, it's great that you've got 10 to 12 ideas, but I've got a lot of other team members, I need to get around. I want you to just call that down your favourite three, yeah, put your favourite three in front of me. And let's go from there. And I'm going to help you build on those three, the other ones, it's cool, it's just playtime, you're allowed to do it. But I'm not a math teacher. I don't need to see you're working out. Yeah, I want to talk about it, I want to understand it. But this, the depth that they try and do is really interesting. And then there's the whole bit like the business of design, I think is really lacking when the students come out just the understanding of what it means to talk or position a piece of work. Or indeed just understand the wider process of design is no longer good. Just been creating something that's beautiful. But that that doesn't that doesn't deliver on a brand. It doesn't deliver on experience. So you are problem solving. And this is the massive difference, which I still talk to students about today. So design is not art. Art is a motive. It's there to create a picture and it's subjective and people look at and go oh, that's very nice. I like that. I'm gonna put it on there. We'll design you are a problem solver. Okay, so make sure you understand the problem before you jump in and try and solve it. Whereas the students will dive in. They're trying to create something beautiful, but it doesn't go back to solving the problem. I think that's where the a broader improvement needs to be made within the education sector.

Lefteris Heretakis: 9:57

Right so do you feel higher education is still the most suitable route for students who want to get a career in design.

Tim Weaver: 10:03

If I'm brutally honest, I don't think it is. I mean, the landscape has dramatically changed for for a new generation of people who wants to become a creative. The other week I saw this, this hilarious meme, which is like the only reason I became a designer as I managed to pirate Photoshop back in 2000. And I think there are so many designers in my generation who actually can go, you know that there's something in that, like, I had a passion for it. And I learned that I was designing for bands long before anyone in University told me how to design. And they didn't tell me how to design they introduced me to software, but still off my own back of my own passion to discover things. And like, education, and how people get educated is so very disruptive these days, anyone can jump on YouTube and learn anything how to implement a particular style look, or feel, you know, it's, you don't need to sit in front of a lecture for them to tell you this. Now, what they need is a true passion to get stuck into this.

Lefteris Heretakis: 11:07

There is there was a problem in that in that YouTube offers everything like I had a problem with software, like a few months ago. And I saw 10 videos, and none of them solved the problem, although they were claiming to solve of the problem. So is the selection that's really difficult for that, you know, so what would you propose as an alternative?

Tim Weaver: 11:28

I would say, I completely get where you're coming from, and I will say like mentorship and and real life agency, placements are far, far more valuable. There's a there's a particular man that I really, really admire. And he, he built an agency in the states and worked for some of the biggest names like kind of your this knees and your Warner Brothers. He's sold that agency now. And he has released a mentorship programme. For every month, anyone can get direct access to this. For $120. That's $120 a month, right? So that's $14,000, maybe 10,000 pounds for the whole year. And this is direct access to a man who will mentor you not only about what design is, but the whole business of design, from a guy who's been there, done it, had an absolute passion made his millions from it, and is now giving back to the community. I think that there's so much more value in that and you look at the rights of value that's been provided on social media channels. Today, you look at, you know, the, the Christos of the future that James Martin have made by James Mike Janda. They are just gushing with value and not asking for anything in return not taking a dime from you. If you find that mentorship, you know, true agency worth the value that you're gonna get bucketloads and you're not going to be stung with a massive bill for the privilege of it at the end of it as well.

Lefteris Heretakis: 12:59

No, absolutely not. I agree with you. It's just that if you need the direction, like you know, when I did some research, after the internet, you know, has all the papers and all the PDFs and all the books online, you're dumbfounded by even if you're an experienced researcher or you're dumbfounded by the bots, the sheer amount of stuff that's online. So you need somebody okay, go here, go here, go here. And then look at that. And then of course, we have another 100 things, see and read and listen and watch.

Tim Weaver: 13:29

Yeah, you need a like a Sherpa. Someone to guide you at the mountain ultimately. Yeah. But I think I personally, I think there's far more valuable and having that Sherpa who, who is who's been there who's been in it and you can write that, that kind of that journey with them at the time, instead of a traditional more lecture talking to many kinds of relationship.

Lefteris Heretakis: 13:52

Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. So what is your take on students who want to go freelancing straight out of university?

Tim Weaver: 14:02

I remember we had a brief chat about this when I came into see a few months back. It's it's admirable. It's completely admirable when you've got the likes of the Gary Vaynerchuk said this well going pushing the idea of everyone being a personal brand and being an entrepreneur straight out the gates and if you graft and grind on tick tock and put three videos out each day, you're gonna have people throwing money at you and being the brand. So I get it, I understand where that message is coming from where the drive and motivation is. But personally, I think you've got to earn your stripes before you can get into the freelance game. Like if he if you compare it to something of like the tattoo industry, I'm covered in tattoos. I'm a big fan of tattoos and the culture and everything that goes around it. But if you want to be a tattoo artist, you're not going to come out of university or out of school and they're going to give you a tattoo go go go go on crack on because the amount of damage He could do with that, with that gun. It's irreplaceable. And it could be the same for a student doing design, you know, not being able to understand interpret, and market and audience how to really resonate. And Brad, you could do a lot of damage. There. Much like in the tattoo industry, you become an apprentice and you work from the ground up, you know, not only do you understand an appreciation of art and technique and implementation, but you know how the shop works. You know how to interact with customers, you know how to deal with complaints, you know, how to clean the shop, and you build yourself up until you've got that experience, and you've been doing it for a while, and then move into freelance platform. Yeah, I think it's so important that you need, you need that guide, you need that shut up that we were talking about to get you to that point for you to then go, Yeah, I've got this. Because the worry would be is that students might dive into being freelance straight off the back of university, they're given a gift shop for three, four months, they're staying at home with mom and dad. So they don't have a load of overheads. But for some reason, it doesn't work out. And almost that dream is over before it's had a chance to really get going. I think, you know, and you stripes, build up with an agency for couple of years, understand the business of design, as well as how to be a great designer, create your portfolio, and then give it a really, really good shot. So what would be your

Lefteris Heretakis: 16:21

advice for students getting their first foot through the door in an agency?

Tim Weaver: 16:26

Oh, okay. All right. So I'd say you've got to always consider your options. Yeah. Before before, just got a like design, and then you send an email to the head of an agency and hope something's gonna happen. Those those students who, who I feel are going to stand out and resonate with someone, it's those are the ones with the passion. They're the ones who have got their hands on the Adobe Suite, or, you know, even dabbling with Canva. And creating these wonderful things. And they've got a nice little portfolio together where you can see passion, you might not be able to see talent, because they're a diamond in the rough right now. But you've got to have something visual to show someone. And then you've got to look at your opportunities, you've got to reach out to people that you might know, and agencies and kind of be really honest and open with them going, guys, this is what I've got, I would absolutely love to come and gain some experience with you guys. It could be one day a week, to five days a week, whatever it is, because there are many, many options. I mean, crikey into a day's unpaid work, work experience with an agency in four days, you could be working at a bar or wherever you want, just keep the money coming in. But you're building up those that experience and get out there, get a little bit of experience, get a bit of experience in different places, and have confidence. I think this is this is a massive, massive piece with university students, you get the quiet students who who will sit back and they'll do their work, but they don't really put their head above the parapet, they don't have the confidence to go, Hey, I've got an idea. Let's go, let's have a chat, let's run with this. have the confidence to be bold and stand out, you've got to make these choices, you've got to make that first step, be it by sending an email, be it by knocking on the door of an agency, which I had some kid, just knock on my agency don't go and I've got a portfolio well done to you, you've actually spoken to me. I've offered an internship opportunity. I was I think I interviewed five students. And the one that I gave the placement to is the one that actually got up, walked around and sat next to me during the interview process, they removed the barrier at the table. And she got up and sat next to me and flip through the portfolio and showed it to me, the idea of being a person or personality is so important. Because you know, you're gonna have loads of people coming out of university with a portfolio with a half decent portfolio, you would hope. But equally, you're going to have all these other people who've been working offline without education with a great portfolio. But what's going to make you stand out is that confidence that drive the ability to have a conversation with the person that you're recruiting with, or who's potentially recruiting your offering, offering you this experience. And they go wow, I remember that kid. I remember that guy. He's the one who like gave me a high five when we left or, you know, left me a packet of Haribo or whatever it is, but you've got to do something to be memorable and confident. And that's for sure.

Lefteris Heretakis: 19:19

So how the students cultivate their confidence

Tim Weaver: 19:23

experience like is you've just got to get stuck in I think, and what mine I can only speak to, I suppose my own personal background is it was in the bands and the creative. They were terrible. They were terrible designs, but everyone's first designs are terrible. You look back and get cranky. But you've got to start putting stuff in front of people. You've got social media these days and social media can be an absolutely brutal place. But if you find the right audiences, if you find the right communities, it can actually be quite supportive as well. So if you're putting a bit of design work out on on Instagram, you Gotta get a community of people who realise and go, Oh, that's kind of nice. But you've got to know that you're just starting, you've got to put it out there, and be able to roll with it. So start talking to people around, you know, your student. And if you're invited back home with mom and dad, you know, during Easter break, which is coming up, for example, and they've invited friends around, chat to that friend. So what is it that you do? You know, go, Oh, that's really interesting. Tell me about your business. What do you do? Because you've got an eating right in the environment. If you want to be a great designer, you're going to need to talk to people, people you've never met before people of different ages, beliefs, opinions, and start to have the, you know, the competence go, Okay, tell me about your market, what you do, what do you struggle with? You know, what are the pain points? What could design do to help alleviate those points, those pain points and solve your problems? Brilliant.

Lefteris Heretakis: 20:52

So from our conversation, and if there were no limitations for higher education, well, would you recommend that the changes that need to be done in higher education for it to become what you would want to be?

Tim Weaver: 21:05

Okay, so clean slate, design, higher education starts again? Okay, I think I, the first thing, first is to remove the notion that the degree is the key to a great career in a design. And in a design career, right? You know, when I was going through education, I thought I had to have this piece of paper before any agency would look at me. And now being on the other side of it, I honestly don't care. Like, I want to see that portfolio far quicker than I ever see a couple of letters at the end of someone's name or a piece of paper that proves that there are very few areas of any industry, I feel that kind of look for that piece of paper these days. So I don't think you've got to stop thinking that I need the degree to get into design, I think they need to start putting more focus on creating a more rounded student, a rounded designer, who not only can create beautiful work, but this is beautiful design, not beautiful art. But they can think creatively that creative problem solvers, they know how to interact with people, and they can deliver and solve problems in the very best way. And I think finally, it is the encouragement of internships and placements, you know, real world experience, that there are courses out there where you do two at uni, and then one in the real world, that I really think there are very few careers these days that you have to be stuck in university for three years, and then all of a sudden, you start to realise what it's like in the real world, get that first hand experience. Because the benefit, the value that it can bring to a student is tenfold if not 100 fall to that of a university cost that can easily be updated. You've got aI just at the cusp of what is really kicking off. And universities are prepared for them. You know, anyone who says they can teach you how to master chat GPT in the next six months, is lying. The only thing that can teach you how to use chat GPT is chat GPT because that's the only damn thing that can keep up with itself right now, university will be talking about AI in 18 months time, and it would have been what we knew 18 months ago. They just can't keep up unlike an agency environment, where they are trialling this right now they're putting it into their works and seeing what happens. And you could be on the edge of that you could be involved in it, if you get that opportunity. Fantastic. Wonderful.

Lefteris Heretakis: 23:38

So if you were to start your career again, would you do anything differently?

Tim Weaver: 23:41

Yes. Whoa. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't go to university, I would do all the things. Just been preaching to be honest with you. Like, I would have had the confidence to go, okay, cool. I love design. I absolutely love designing and creating beautiful things and these brands and these T shirts and these websites. But I was at the airport, I was like, if I want to make a career out of this, I have to go to university. And whilst I was at university, the fees were nowhere near what they are these days. But goodness, they still paid off my fees Now, luckily, because I'm around but I didn't need to do that. I could have gone into the agency if I had more confidence, I could have worked with the connections that I had in my my family and friends separate groups and I could have been in that agency from day one earning a pittance. But I could have been there learning with real world hands on experience. And I think that's so important like university. There there are other benefits to university I suppose, like the idea of learning how to be a little bit more independent and live without you know, the support and the safety net of mum and dad. But there are other ways you can do that as well. Probably even more exciting. Just give it to a flat share or something like that. It could be carnage, but my goodness, you'd be

Lefteris Heretakis: 24:59

who you think he UCS have the time to devote to a candidate that has not gone through any process in any any any education process.

Tim Weaver: 25:10

If we were to go like poll every agency out there, a lot of them would be going, Well, what we'd love to but we don't have the capacity. Yeah, exactly, exactly. The agencies, I feel they need to write this, I think this is the shift, you know, we talked about if you were to start education again, but where do agencies need to adjust and evolve. And I think they need to actually be open to the idea of the benefits of bringing really young raw talent in and giving them some kind of programme and coaching and mentorship. Because what they can deliver and what they can do for that agency is so very, very powerful. It's untainted by the world of education in many ways. And they can use this raw talent that you can build up. And it doesn't take a lot of time. To be honest, if you find the right candidate who listens and implements, there's so much they can give back to you.

Lefteris Heretakis: 25:57

Maybe what you're hinting at, is the agencies creating a curriculum, thinking possibility for the education in a way,

Tim Weaver: 26:08

I think that there will be huge scope for that. And you could see the value of that students would get from it as well. This is a curriculum written by agencies. This is the whole process right? From an initial meeting with a client a an understanding of the brief, the dissection of the brief the creation of a proposal, where's that gone in any kind of design, education, the submission of a contract, what to include in a contract, what not to include in a contract, how to price your work, how to charge for your work, how to create an addendum to a contract, these are all things that every student who goes I'm going to come out of university and be a freelancer is going to fall flat on their face, because they don't have a clue about half of these things. But there needs to be a course that goes, well, that's actually 50% of the design in the design business, right. And it's still equally fascinating. It's still creative, actually love that admin kind of stuff. Because it's just, it's so easy to stand out in an agency environment as well, if you're a creative with a great proposal, because a lot of them are just you know, horribly created, or a lot of other agencies not necessarily, you know, the big ones, but those that you might be competing with straight out the back of ideas with an agency, that'd be pretty poor, they might not understand it. So having a curriculum created by an agency that gives you a broader and round her appreciation that delivering on a project, and the skills that you have out the other side 100%.

Lefteris Heretakis: 27:31

Fantastic. So what is the advice you would like to leave us with?

Tim Weaver: 27:36

Oh, okay. I think it's twofold. So talking to the educators out there, it's time to step up. It's really, it's to think long and hard about what you are doing for your students and these future designers, right? Are you actually serving them? Are you giving them the very best information that they require? Of the moment of the time? Are you very blinkered? Are you giving this kind of linear focused topic on a piece of information that you have a passion about, because your passion may not be your student's passion, you need to set them up for this big wide world of design that is changing at an exponential rate. If you're a student, on the other hand, be confident look at your options, and sees the incredible opportunities that are now the free opportunities that are out there to really become phenomenal, and kind of boost that passion, light that fire that will see through for years and years to come. And then when you've really kind of managed to get that passion onto a couple of pieces of paper on a really simple website, use that confidence that you're going to build, start knocking on doors, sending a few emails, and going guys, let's get stuck in let me come and have a chat with you for 10 minutes because I love design. In a short time. This is what I've learned. I've taught myself and I know I can learn so much more from you guys. And I want to bring value to you. I think that's that's really, really important to have the confidence to do that.

Lefteris Heretakis: 29:01

Well, Tim, thank you so much for this fantastic conversation. Join us design education for which you can and we'll be in touch. Brilliant.

Tim Weaver: 29:10

Thank you so much.

Lefteris Heretakis: 29:11

Thank you. Thanks so much.